Curse

Angel Killuminati · Mar 24, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Said it before and i'll say it again. If mercenary heroes are a step towards what they are perhaps planning for GW2, i'll be severely let down. As soon as the in game cash shop offers advantages, however small, over people who don't pay - then the F2P model goes out of the window because of micro transactions.

Yes, we can pay for other things atm, costumes, skill packs etc etc, but no update as far as I can remember let you take more characters of a certain profession around with you in PvE, or altered the way you play PvE, and the game in general.

I hope they don't take this thought process into GW2. Micro transactions of this nature really ruin F2P models. But on the flipside, I understand that companies need to make money.

ogre_jd · Mar 24, 2011, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by chessyang

To answer second part of your question. Never.

To answer the first question of "Why" I felt duped. Caution. Has lots of "I".

~Rewind to 2007~
I had to spend 29.99 to get access to this content. (I KNOW, no one was holding a gun to my head to spend it)

See attached 1

It's never said buy it. Only spend. "I had that mind set" Anet is giving away more content for free!

see attached 3

Oh i guess the BMP isn't free? I wonder what changed? Oh well I love this game and i'll "spend 29.99" to get access.

see attached 2[/quote]

Yes, you bought EotN or $29 of other items and got the Bonus Mission Pack as a bonus during the stated promotional period (attch 1). After that promotion, due to high demand, they put it in the NCSoft store as a regular item (for $10) for people to buy. So?

And because Sorrow's Furnace (attch 3) was a free update, that meant that the BMP would have to be free without additional purchase, even when they explicitly said otherwise in the first entry?

Attch 2 shows nothing other than it's talking about new content and, assuming it's from the same article (which you didn't bother linking to, for some reason), doesn't give any indication of how the BMP would be distributed - but clearly would come after the first entry (which is question #1, while this part is question #7) which states how (and for how long) the BMP would be available as a bonus for buying from the online store.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Killuminati

Said it before and i'll say it again. If mercenary heroes are a step towards what they are perhaps planning for GW2, i'll be severely let down. As soon as the in game cash shop offers advantages, however small, over people who don't pay - then the F2P model goes out of the window because of micro transactions.

Again, the in-game store had far greater advantages for sale for a long time before the Mercenary Heroes. (skill unlocks, pet unlocks, PvP rune/insigina/weapon mods unlocks, Xunlai Storage Panes, the GotY weapons & Fire Imp, extra character slots, extra campaigns & expansions all provide far more tangible advantages than anyone has shown the Mercs to have)

TheGizzy · Mar 24, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Or another choice: cosmetic microtransactions. This works for costumes, why would it suddenly not work for Mercs?

I don't think it's so much that it would suddenly not work for Mercs... if anything, I think that's what ANet was shooting for.

Much of this debate hinges on whether or not there is a tangible advantage to having merc heroes. The closest I've seen anyone come to offering one up has been "more choices." But even at that... it seems to me that all the existing microtransactions offer the same: more choices. I don't like any of the elementalist armor. I find the elite Vabbian to be at least tolerable, so I'm saving my gems for that. In the interim, unhappy with the choices afforded me in-game, I bought the Shining Blade costume. I now have "more choices" than those who didn't buy it.

The next claim has been speed. Again we have precedent dating back a few years... I have more gold, more elite items, more "exactly what I want" stuff than my husband or best friend - because I bought the skill packs and thus was able to do pretty much everything faster and more efficiently than they could without it. I can do FoW with just me and my heroes because every skill in the game was immediately available to my heroes, and quickly available to me via a tome. Instant access, no waiting, no grinding.

Another (variation on previous two themes) has been the full team/single profession argument (all mesmers, necros, whatever). This one baffles me the most, primarily because a) you have always been able to create that simply by partying up with others, b) to date, no one has demonstrated that a 1-human/7-hero-same-profession team can achieve anything faster than all other possible (and freely available) combinations and c) if anything, such a team would be LESS efficient and MORE difficult to manage (limited flagging, excessive micromanaging, etc.) than the same team composition with more humans.

My guess is that ANet perceives the merc heroes exactly as I do... has the same opinion on the aforementioned arguments that I do... and so from THEIR perspective, merc heroes fit in perfectly with their original vision: no microtransactions providing in-game advantage.

In which case, all the "doom and gloom, the end is near, the sky is falling and ANet has turned into a greedmachine" predictions fly right out the window... because as yet, no one has proven that the introduction of these merc heroes actually represent a break from the original vision. There's a lot of speculation about how they might present a tangible advantage... and yet, we're not suddenly seeing a rash of meta builds containing 7-same-profession heroes or YouTube videos of same.

Might that still happen? Sure. It might. There are some amazing minds among the players of this game, and a few hundred or thousand people exploring all possible combinations is going to be a lot more efficient than a live team of 4 people trying to do the same. And if it does happen, I expect ANet will address it and fix it somehow.

But right now, I suspect they don't see any tangible benefit - and as such, released something they believe to be wholly in line with their original vision. As yet, no one has proven otherwise.

chessyang · Mar 24, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Here are my three response for your questions as best as i can answer. I hope they are acceptable. If not please PM. I do not want to get off topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

. So?

you know i said i was QQ'ing to my self? And i understand my own stuipd thinking in 2007. So like i said "i do not know what to say to you/anyone on how i felt i was duped" I tried my best in the previous post. If you can't accpet my own rant i have no clue what to say. it's just a rant/soup box moment. I'm only mad at my self.

Quote:

And because Sorrow's Furnace

Yep They tricked me! Just like they did with with these MH! I love GW/Anet to much! Hate being a Fanboy!

Quote:

(which you didn't bother linking to, for some reason)

Yes sir! I Agree. oh the link. The reason, i don't know. didn't seem to matter on this thread about MH because it was BMP stuff. Any one can look it up themselves from the wiki.

Getting back on topic *like to order another Hamburger! Extra pickles!* the point of view keep growing! WOOT!!!

X Dr Pepper X · Mar 24, 2011, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

Another (variation on previous two themes) has been the full team/single profession argument (all mesmers, necros, whatever). This one baffles me the most, primarily because a) you have always been able to create that simply by partying up with others, b) to date, no one has demonstrated that a 1-human/7-hero-same-profession team can achieve anything faster than all other possible (and freely available) combinations and c) if anything, such a team would be LESS efficient and MORE difficult to manage (limited flagging, excessive micromanaging, etc.) than the same team composition with more humans.

Player w/o Merc heroes:

Wait longer and get a more efficient human group OR

Immediately start content but suffer a less efficient hero group

Player with Merc heroes:

Wait longer and get a more efficient human group OR

Immediately start content but suffer a less efficient hero group OR

Commence immediately with an improved Merc hero group which is still less efficient than humans, but more efficient than normal heroes

You can't make the point that one could always group with players instead of the Merc team and attribute them both equally. They are not the same thing.

It is obvious that the player with Mercs have an advantage.

Just wait til people start posting record DoA times for hero groups with Mercs without any of the hassle and time wasted forming a group. I can easily see them being more efficient in terms of saving time.

chuckles79 · Mar 24, 2011, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by aga

It's far from surprising that it was done. All that businesses want to do is make money by any means neccessary, ncsoft/anet are no different, infact I'd say NCsoft are the most money grabbing game publishers around.

Interesting thing to say about NCsoft. ANet is the only division of NCsoft that hasn't made a profit in three years. However NCsoft continues to support them. Obviously theres more than black and red numbers at work here.

TheGizzy · Mar 24, 2011, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

[LIST]Wait longer and get a more efficient human group

And once again we're back to the point I made much earlier in this thread and in the one that preceded it - the issue is a matter of convenience. You don't want to have to wait to form the team, but you don't want to pay for the convenience of NOT having to wait, either.

It isn't that one player can clear FoW quickly and another cannot, for example - it's that some players don't like the fact that they have to pay for an additional option for clearing it. They don't want to pay for the convenience of NOT having to party up to do it. Clearing it - and thus the same rewards, the same benefits - can be done by either group. One method is simply more convenient by not having to wait to find someone else to run the same builds with.

And yet, purchasing "convenience" has quite a bit of precedence - it is a lot more convenient to buy a skill pack & use tomes than it is to cap skills as you slowly work your way to the bosses that have the skills you want. It is a lot more convenient to buy the PvP-unlock kit. It is a lot more convenient to buy the pet unlock kit.

Lasai · Mar 24, 2011, 07:17 PM // 19:17

I removed my comments from this thread as I belatedly realized this isn't about playing the game itself..it is about farming. All the debate in the world regarding actual completion of game goals has no bearing, it is farming.

The perception that after a given time period someone somewhere in game has earned a few more plat or a couple more dropped items has no bearing on actually achieving game goals other than massing pixel wealth. Becoming wealthy faster is not a game mechanic required at any level.

Anet, if it is shown that this is a farming issue, will do as they have done in the past regarding farming builds. So far they have never seemed to think that overly successful farming builds are an entitlement, and have instead changed something to nerf the builds. All one has to do is look at the skill revision to Consume soul to realize that ANET has the tools to potentially target and change group makeup effectiveness particularly vs hero AI.

If the farm is too successful, the farm will get nerfed, and people who bought Mercs solely to farm with will be annoyed, as they are with every farm nerf. People who bought for cosmetic reasons will not be affected.

This is a non-event over a non-issue. Enhanced farming ability has never been an entitlement.

Estic · Mar 24, 2011, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

I removed my comments from this thread as I belatedly realized this isn't about playing the game itself..it is about farming. All the debate in the world regarding actual completion of game goals has no bearing, it is farming.

Having read most of it I think it's about neither. It seems to be if Anet is moving towards giving small bonuses to players who have cash to spend.

Neither side of the debate really knows anything for sure, but on the plus side: everyone has already made their minds up about buying future GW games if this (where "this" is completely dependent upon the mind set of the person posting) is actually the way to go.

For what it's worth, I agree wholeheartedly with this part of your post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

This is a non-event over a non-issue.

chessyang · Mar 24, 2011, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

I removed my comments from this thread as....

naw... it's not all about farming. but I do agree with most of your post in the pre-pages. Most of the arguments/advantage is/are how "fast" someone can farm X item over MH vs H/H is a debate. It seems some do and some don't care. Money, it drives our lives here in game or in real life.

Also in the threads it's the topic of Anet's Goals & philosophy has changed from day one. FTP + DLC + business model. etc...

it's a big mess! This hamburger is getting complicated!

Essence Snow · Mar 24, 2011, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

And once again we're back to the point I made much earlier in this thread and in the one that preceded it - the issue is a matter of convenience. You don't want to have to wait to form the team, but you don't want to pay for the convenience of NOT having to wait, either.

It isn't that one player can clear FoW quickly and another cannot, for example - it's that some players don't like the fact that they have to pay for an additional option for clearing it. They don't want to pay for the convenience of NOT having to party up to do it. Clearing it - and thus the same rewards, the same benefits - can be done by either group. One method is simply more convenient by not having to wait to find someone else to run the same builds with.

And yet, purchasing "convenience" has quite a bit of precedence - it is a lot more convenient to buy a skill pack & use tomes than it is to cap skills as you slowly work your way to the bosses that have the skills you want. It is a lot more convenient to buy the PvP-unlock kit. It is a lot more convenient to buy the pet unlock kit.

It's been well established that YES there are ofc other advantages available for purchase..so arguing that point is redundant as it has already been agreed upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

I removed my comments from this thread as I belatedly realized this isn't about playing the game itself..it is about farming. All the debate in the world regarding actual completion of game goals has no bearing, it is farming.

The perception that after a given time period someone somewhere in game has earned a few more plat or a couple more dropped items has no bearing on actually achieving game goals other than massing pixel wealth. Becoming wealthy faster is not a game mechanic required at any level.

Anet, if it is shown that this is a farming issue, will do as they have done in the past regarding farming builds. So far they have never seemed to think that overly successful farming builds are an entitlement, and have instead changed something to nerf the builds. All one has to do is look at the skill revision to Consume soul to realize that ANET has the tools to radically change group makeup effectiveness.

If the farm is too successful, the farm will get nerfed, and people who bought Mercs solely to farm with will be annoyed, as they are with every farm nerf. People who bought for cosmetic reasons will not be affected.

This is a non-event over a non-issue. Enhanced farming ability has never been an entitlement.

What?...Most of the arguemnts are about the direction that selling an advantage is taking the game, not really the advantage itself.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, feels like a duck....chances are it's a duck. If you close your eyes...it won't look like a duck to you. If you plug your ears...it won't sound like a duck to you. If you refuse to touch the duck...it won't feel like a duck to you. If you don't look, listen, or feel the duck ofc you can call it a squirrel and believe it. Unfotunately to everyone else it is not a squirrel...it's a duck.

Lasai · Mar 24, 2011, 07:55 PM // 19:55

That it is sale of an advantage is hinged upon the farming effectiveness from what I have seen. It being an advantage in any other aspect has not been even remotely established.

Farming ease--- not a gameplay advantage-- not selling a gameplay advantage--- no slippery slope--- non issue.

TheGizzy · Mar 24, 2011, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

What?...Most of the arguemnts are about the direction that selling an advantage is taking the game, not really the advantage itself.

Unless, of course, there is no actual advantage.

It's a multi-layered debate and it hinges on a central point: was selling an advantage the intention behind the release?

If ANet does not perceive the advantage, then was that what they were selling? If the only verifiable advantage is one of convenience, then is that any different than every other DLC they've released until now?

Lasai · Mar 24, 2011, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Trouble is, this thread was started with the loaded statement.. Selling In Game Advantages.. as if it was an established fact.

The actual debate should have been "are Mercenary Heroes a significant gameplay advantage compared to past purchased items"

Prior to arguing over a direction ANET may be going it would be prudent to actually establish they have taken a step in that direction with this offering.

Gabs88 · Mar 24, 2011, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

Player w/o Merc heroes:

Wait longer and get a more efficient human group OR

Immediately start content but suffer a less efficient hero group

Player with Merc heroes:

Wait longer and get a more efficient human group OR

Immediately start content but suffer a less efficient hero group OR

Commence immediately with an improved Merc hero group which is still less efficient than humans, but more efficient than normal heroes

Player without merc heroes:
1 ER Prot
1 SoS healing hybrid
1 Minionmaster Necro
2x Necromancer spikers (SS\FoC\PoD)
2x Mesmers (Panic + Ineptitude)

Player with Merc heroes:
3 Necromancers OR ER Prot + SoS Hybrid + Dedicated minionmaster
4 Mesmers

It's not the fcking big difference people make it up to be. You can complete the ENTIRE game without using mercenary heroes!

You can do FoW HM, EASY.
You can do UW NM as long as you got an ER Prot for horsemen.
You can do full DoA HM Run, hard, but workable.
You can kick mallyx ass, hard, but workable.
You can steamroll all vanquishes, easy.
You can steamroll all missions, easy.
You can do The Deep or Urgoz Warren with heroes as only partners, not sure how but people do it and theyre NOT using more then 2 mesmers.
You can complete all campaigns.
You can do all HM dungeons in EOTN without much trouble.
You can do TOPK HM, without much trouble.
You can do Sorrows Furnace HM, not too hard.
You can do all HM missions in EOTN, not hard.

And this guys, is stuff you can do regardless of primary profession. The only thing I'm not 100% sure you can't do with heroes is UW HM as I havent seen anyone that has done it yet.

So most importaintly:
You can stop whining now, only reason you cant do X item on the list above is because youre not trying hard enough and suck at the game!

I mean, omg, be happy. 7 heroes lets you complete every single thing in this game without any restrictions. There's absolutely nothing left you cant do and still youre whining!

Look at say the ling conglomerate, see if they use 4 mesmers in completing anything on their list..

Miteshu · Mar 24, 2011, 08:27 PM // 20:27

If there is a build that requires mercenaries to run certain dungeons solo and it is very effective. Then we know when it is a ingame advantage.

FoxBat · Mar 24, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Massed mesmer heroes do offer serious speedclear advantages. They aren't as safe or foolproof, nor are they going to work that much better in every vanquish, nor is one set of skills going to be all that good in every different place. But tuned appropriately, with proper aggro manage, they will cut through specific content faster than anything else. The principle is that they are basically AoE discorders, I think you can figure out how that might be abuseable.

Gli · Mar 24, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

John Stumme has more or less admitted mercs are an advantage in his wiki user page linked to in the OP. They're quite obviously an advantage because they allow you to do something that you can't do without them.

The question isn't whether or not they give an advantage, the question is, does this advantage in any way affect the game negatively.

And for the record, I don't think it does.

Ghost Dog · Mar 24, 2011, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Even if it isn't a big advantage today, it won't stop anywhere near there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Trouble is, this thread was started with the loaded statement.. Selling In Game Advantages.. as if it was an established fact.

You would have to be incredibly naive or just argumentative to think they will draw the line here.

Ghull Ka · Mar 24, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

You would have to be incredibly naive or just argumentative to think they will draw the line here.

Or optimistic.

Not every slope is slippery! ...or something